Today’s international system is made up of states: Territorial entities with defined borders, with exclusive control within those borders, diplomatic recognition by other states outside of them and usually (though not always) tied to some idea of the “nation”. But how many states have existed throughout history, such as during the 19th century? Some early counts put the number at just a few dozen—a measure that international relations professors Charles R. Butcher and Ryan D Griffiths thought was far too low, missing polities throughout the non-Western world.

Together, they put together their own count of independent states in the 19th century, as published in their latest work Before Colonization: Non-Western States and Systems in the Nineteenth Century. Charles joins us today to talk about his work. He is a professor in the Department of Sociology and Political Science at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology. His research focuses on the legacies of historical states and state systems, democratization and civil resistance.

Nicholas Gordon has an MPhil from Oxford in International Relations and a BA from Harvard. He is a writer, editor and occasional radio host based in Hong Kong.